Just reading the tai chi tribe, somebody Again points out that the original purpose of tai chi was Spiritual Development.
And all these years I thought it was developed for self-defense.
Has there Ever been a Martial Art that was Originally developed for the Spiritual rather than the physical?
I was reading somewhere that the Chinese MAs were developed and taught in secret to the priveleged few.
and all these years I thought kung fu techniques were developed for peasants who could not afford weapons.
I unlearn something every day.
And all these years I thought it was developed for self-defense.
Has there Ever been a Martial Art that was Originally developed for the Spiritual rather than the physical?
I was reading somewhere that the Chinese MAs were developed and taught in secret to the priveleged few.
and all these years I thought kung fu techniques were developed for peasants who could not afford weapons.
I unlearn something every day.
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SF Bay Area
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Thu, February 15, 2007 - 11:53 AMHello,
I've been in the M.A.'s 41 years...Isshinryu, TKD (as a martial art...taught by Grandmaster Dr. Dae Shik Kim one the the founders in US) privately.....also (Aikijujitsu, Kyokushinkai ) with Dr. Kim who was senior to the founders Tomiki and Oyama,,,,I also do iron palm....and soft fist Isshinryu.
also 20 years with native american medicine....amazon shamanism...(ayahuasca) etc...been rolfed, rebirthed, chiropracticated...done sweat lodges, quodoushka, etc.
I highly recommend Falun Dafa, a chi gong that will help your martial arts practice in every area, although it is not a martial art itself.
Goggle Falun Dafa to find people in your area....always free and they will come to you when you ask if time is really a constraint.
Namaste,
T. Texas -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Thu, February 15, 2007 - 11:58 AMT- this is an exact copy of your intro post for this tribe and also of your blurb on your profile. I have read the falun dafa website and have no interest in it.
If you have something to contribute in a discussion please do so, but please do not just repeat yourself. -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Thu, February 15, 2007 - 12:50 PMQatana,
Exactly! I agree 100%. The purpose of martial practice is simple...how to attack your opponents and how to defend against your opponents. Sure, there are by-products...but the purpose is quite simple.
Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Fri, February 16, 2007 - 1:42 PMJust establishing that I have been there ... a long time....since mid 60's.......
I have seen so many people overcompete esp. in the old bare knuckle days and get injured permanantly... and then either drop out completely or just teach and stand around counting form 1-10...
kata practice is the foundation of the Karate, TKD, Chinese striking arts. The older katas such as Isshinryu, Chinese have many layers of bunkai or application. So many they can not be totally known by any one person in a single life time
The newer forms such as Korean Palgwe are traditionally done for long periods of time..while they may not include the most exciting bunkai to be found they do serve the purpose.....with Dr. Kim we did them 4-5 hours at a time with no rest. (privately...just myself brother Dr. Kim in closed dojang...)
After 2-3 hours (done full power with loud Ki-hap) you find your concentration wavering greatly....but you go on.... and often in that zone the Master will insult you......it is to see if you are still in the self pity (I can't go on...must rest)-------or self importance( hey, this is crap, what do I need to be doing this so long for?) dichotomy......self pity/fear----self importance/anger its the same thing....and this is what tyrants on the street are skilled at manipulating.....the victum into either fear or anger....either one they can manipulate....
What I found is happening at the 2-3 hour point is that you are "hitting the wall" as in marathon running....you have burned up your glucose reserves and are running on glycogen......and they you are tested by insults to see of where your consciousness is....
This is a gateway......an invisible one all masters go through.....in this "zone" you perceive a hightened awareness and a sense of economy of motion....maximum benifit/minimum effort physically and also mentally...spiritually.....a oneness of self with earth, opponent, etc.
I hope I haven't repeated myself.....
T Texas -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Fri, February 16, 2007 - 4:30 PMI don't believe that what you ae talking about has Anything to do with my original post. -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Sat, February 17, 2007 - 10:50 AMI'm defining what a spiritual practice as it relates to a martial art is...in my experience at least.....it isn't all kitty cats, and rainbows, and unicorns. It is by v e r y deeply engaging in the physical that one arrives at the spiritual. By having impeccable technique one can arrive at the state where one never fights, even around lower chakra, aggressive people.....And with my back ground I am just establishing that anything I comment on in Budo is from dirrect experience not speculation...if I haven't felt and Known it in my being, I don't know it....
And a parallel with Native American Medicine (another part of my background) .....draw a circle...
at the top N. mind....
right E. spirit
left W physical
down S emotional
center...Quodoushka or Tantric
proper use of energy is to determine with the spirit E
hold with the body W
give with the emotions S
receive with the mind N
out of balance use of energy is to determine with the mind= misses the point
hold with the emotions= stagnate...
give with the body= burnout and stress
receive with the spirit=a staleness..not walking a "path with heart"
if you draw this wheel n-s e-w are directly connected accross the wheel..
as in W body to E spirit...what touches the body directly touches the spirit....
this is what I am talking about........
T. Fort Worth, Texas -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Sat, February 17, 2007 - 1:30 PMFine. You just go ahead and talk about whatever you want to, whether or not it has ANything to do with the original post. Which was about the concept of MA having been created as a spiritual practice, NOT mking a spiritual practice out of a martial art. -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Mon, February 19, 2007 - 12:20 PMI am saying....it was created as both a spiritual and physical practice....not a duality thing as either/or....and it isn't until one can go with the depth to get past the first level awareness of the "voice in your head" ego awareness that sees things as one thing or the other duality and can't yet grasp the oneness of it..and with the striking arts...kata training is the vehicle that is used and the master or grandmaster is the conductor that guides the student through that gateway...he drives the student til the voice in their head crashes....and they go on....this is the way it has always been done.......(Motobu one of Tatsuo Shimabuku's instructors did Naihanchi kata 500 times a day.....20 years after he had learned it....for both the waza and the No-mind training....)..."The Way is In Training" Even with the voice in your head ego awareness as your original sitting place....one can get past this starting point with a Spiritual entry...East on the wheel...or from a Physical entry...west on the wheel....to arrive at the center.....or understanding both.......as the same thing.......
And with the Korean Palgwe forms (or eight powers of the Universe) or poomses....the practitioner embodies the concepts of
heaven, joy, fire, thunder, wind, water, mountain, and earth..(or with earth, the entirety of the previous 7).....in the respective poomses...1-8 1-heaven 2-joy 3-fire etc......
And in previous post....a disease some (men mostly) get is to overcompete and get permanent injuries to the extent that even if physically bound they will cease in their efforts and never really understand the art too injured to participate...red badge of courage......but many will become storerfront dojo masters and stand around and count from one to ten, a lot.......
Thorne,
Texas -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Mon, February 19, 2007 - 12:26 PMhow about you take this over to the Martial Arts tribe and quit spamming mine? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Mon, February 19, 2007 - 12:37 PMHi, because I believe that women are more conscious without the testosterone nonsense to occlude their view....I won't spam your site.....do let some of what I've given you sink in......
T. -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Mon, February 19, 2007 - 12:44 PMhuh?This isn't a "womens'" page, if it was, you wouldn't be here.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Tue, February 20, 2007 - 11:02 AMWhy the hostility? Go ahead, let it out.
T, Texas -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Tue, February 20, 2007 - 11:07 AMDarlin, I am not being hostile. I am the moderator of this tribe and I am questioning your motives for being here. This is not a "womens" site, this is not a Dating site, this is not a site for your personal self-aggrandisement. If you don't want to play in My playground by My rules, you may not play here.
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Thu, February 15, 2007 - 10:47 PMI've never heard of a martial art developed for a spiritual purpose. Martial arts are developed for ... martial applications. If you aren't interested in a martial application, then it isn't a martial art, its a ..... spiritual practice. -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Fri, February 16, 2007 - 4:33 PMExactly. And ironically, I don't train in aikido for martial reasons at all! But aikido was originated as a Martial art which the Founder eventually transformed Into a spiritual practice.
In my dojo, self defense is a side effect. We train for transformation. -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Sun, February 18, 2007 - 6:38 PMso we have 2 new members doing nothing but spouting about themselves or about the woman they want to meet. sheesh.
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Mon, February 19, 2007 - 10:07 PMThe 28th Buddha, most commonly known as Bodhidharma is credited with actions that directly resulted in the development of all Asian Martial Arts.
So yes...
The story goes He came to China in the 5th century and found the monks in such terrible physical condition that He devised a method of conditioning. So that they could could complete their journey to full awareness.
“When he emerged after nine years of seclusion, some say he wrote two classics: I Chin Ching (Muscle/Tendon changing classic) and Hsi Sui Chin (Marrow Washing Classic). The basis of these works was the physical drills that came to be known as "Eighteen Hands of the Lo-Han (Buddha)."
This became the temple of Shorin (today Shaolin temple) situated on Mount Su in Honan Province.
b -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Tue, February 20, 2007 - 5:26 AMHi, Brian
Thank you for bringing it back on topic :-)
I tend to take religious tales, whether re Bodhidharma or Jesus or Moses or whoever, with many grains of salt. Heck, in just a few decades, OSensei has been idealized and mythologies sprung up via second and third hand accounts - so over centuries....<grin>
So what the practical me wonders (notwithstanding that I do indeed consider aikido my spiritual practice, so I ain't a total philistine): how much of poor physical condition was a problem of being a bar to a journey to self awareness and how much a problem of surviving the socio-politico-economic issues of the time , ie, self defense reasons.
Rhetorical question. Its a given we cannot "know" the answer. -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Tue, February 20, 2007 - 10:51 AMOne wonders why a bunch of Chinese Buddhist monks needed to learn how to fight in order to be in good condition to meditate, when all they needed in India was Yoga. Buddhist/Fighting=contradiction -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Thu, May 3, 2007 - 10:51 PMProbably to avoid getting constantly beaten up and robbed by maurauding brigands in those times. Being dead was/is a pretty effective barrier to meditative practice... :-) -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Fri, May 4, 2007 - 6:53 AMYeah, 'cept it still wasn't MEANT as a spiritual practice, it was meant as a martial one. THe spiritual benefits are after the fact. -
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Re: cynical rhetorical crap
Sat, May 5, 2007 - 7:00 AMYea, i take yr point, but perhaps the original motovation for foudning any MA doesn't matter as much as how it is practiced today? For instance, i can totally understand irritation at ppl who debase arts that i care about by showing bad form whilst waffling on about how "spiritual" the practice is for them; i find that kind of behaviour quite parasitical. But at the same time i recall someone saying that evoloution is not the norm, extinction is, and perhaps Taiji as a MA is on the way out? (For whatever reason and i'm not going to get sucked into that tussle here!) I mean, we set up our training around our lives for the most part, not the other way around as it has been in the past. In such a climate, it's hardly surprising that some MA's have been co-opted to serve other purposes. Doesn't stop me from getting pissed off at the happy clappy brigade though :-)
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